Donald Trump copywriter interview part 3
Published: Sat, 11/07/15
QUESTION: There seems to be a growing divergence of opinion on what makes top-selling copy in the "new economy." There are those in the old school who espouse the long sales letter - problem, pain, solution, offer model. On the other hand, there is a growing band saying that people are sick of being sold to and want a more harmonious, longer-term rapport with marketers. I see successful and unsuccessful versions of both sides. What do you think?
SCOTT HAINES: You've got this all wrong. You are talking about a tactic versus a strategy. The long sales letter is a tactic that works... and probably will for the foreseeable future. The other deal is a strategy. And it has ALWAYS been more profitable to do longer-term, educational-based, rapport- building marketing to prospects and customers.
I mentioned Jay Abraham before. He's a master at this type of overall strategy. But that doesn't mean he doesn't use the "tactic" of doing a complete sales job via the long-form sales letter when he's offering something.
QUESTION: Schwartz (and other greats) talks about not drawing attention to the copy - in essence, making the copy transparent. What do you do to avoid drawing attention to your copy? What's your test?
SCOTT HAINES: Flow and smoothness. A simple, direct style. Very few (if any) ten-dollar words. And always, ALWAYS, read your copy out loud to find the rough spots.
QUESTION: In selling Information/Advice products: What's your approach? Some suggest mixing "teaching" with "selling" in a promotion. What do you suggest avoiding and what sort of balance do you want to get between information/'golden nuggets' and 'selling'?
SCOTT HAINES: I generally don't include much "teaching" in my promotions. Not that it doesn't work, I just tend to lean more toward a curiosity-building/takeaway approach. So I can't give you any ratio or specifics. You'll have to test it for yourself.
(NOTE: If I were writing a magalog or bookalog, I'd include more giveaway info... because... that's the whole purpose of those formats... to make your advertisement look/read more like valuable content.)
QUESTION: What do you do if a promotion fails? Where do you begin to rewrite? Do you begin with the appeal? The theme or Idea? The Lead? Or do you kill the entire thing and begin from scratch?
SCOTT HAINES: Fortunately, this doesn't happen very often... but...it does happen. If it never happens, you're just not doing enough.
But if something does fail, the first step is always analysis to determine the possible problem. And, depending on the answer (or answers), I might change offer, pricing, headline, theme... or.. scrap the whole thing and try something completely different.
I wish I could give you a better answer... but each case is unique with all kinds of different variables.
QUESTION: How can an experienced writer, but inexperienced copywriter break in and start building clips for a portfolio? You must have a portfolio before anyone will take you serious and pay you accordingly. Do you make up "dummy" copy ads?
SCOTT HAINES: You can do that... but a better solution is to offer to do some spec work. Spec meaning they only pay you if it works. Or, last resort, you can offer to do totally free work on the contingency that, if it's successful, you can include it in your portfolio... along with the results and possibly a testimonial from the client. And it wouldn't hurt to try to work in a subsequent paid assignment into the agreement.
John Carlton calls this the "Shameless Whore" phase... and... whether you like it or not, and even though you're an experienced writer, you've got to spend some time there. Everyone does.
QUESTION: How much time do you spend researching in relation to the total project?
SCOTT HAINES: Research can grow beyond 60% to as little as 5% or less. Example: When I first started writing financial promos (more than a decade ago), my research was as much as 75%-80% of the total project. These days, it's less than 10% and sometimes 0%.
QUESTION: I know that most great copywriters read a lot of great writing. Who is your favorite fiction author, and why?
SCOTT HAINES: Easy. John D. MacDonald. He penned the Travis McGee series of novels.
Halbert got me hooked on him and that series. Quick story (that I've told elsewhere, but it's relevant, so I'm going to repeat it here):
Shortly after I first started working with Halbert (back in 1998), we took a trip from Miami down to the Florida Keys. Marathon to be exact. And while in Marathon, we stopped at a bookstore. I picked up a health book to help me with a current project and Gary picked up a few paperbacks. After we got back in the car, Gary handed me one of the paperbacks and said...
"You'll always remember where you were when
Gary Halbert bought you your first Travis McGee novel."
And, quite obviously, I still do. In fact, on a somewhat recent vacation to the Keys, I passed by that bookstore and the memory of him giving me that book was as vivid as the day he did it.
Anyway, at that time, Gary didn't say, "Read this, it'll make you a better copywriter." No, he just told me that once I start reading Travis McGee, I'll become addicted. And I did. Not a rabid addiction, but I slowly worked my way through the entire series (21 books in all) over roughly 10 years.
And now that I'm finished with all the books in the Travis McGee series, I consider that gift one of the most important things I ever received from Gary. Why? It's simple...
Reading Those Books Made Me
A Better Storyteller!
And good storytelling ("in print" or "in person") is paramount to persuasion and selling.
Also, one of the earlier questions was about making writing transparent. If you want an example of transparent writing, read a McGee novel. You'll almost never notice his style or the words... you'll just be engrossed in the story.
QUESTION: How do you get in the right frame of mind to write copy? How do you get your "game face" on?
SCOTT HAINES: In my Shortcut Copywriting Secrets(tm) Mini-Course, I have a whole section devoted to this subject titled...
"How To Write Killer Moneymaking Copy Even On
Those Days When Your Mind Is Completely Frozen!"
I'll tell you how you can get a free copy in my answer to the next question.
QUESTION: Where can I find more of your sales letters to study since "Shortcut Copywriting Secrets" is off the market? I really want to see more of your work.
SCOTT HAINES: True, I did remove my course from the market because I wanted to focus on some projects in other markets. And I'm still doing that. However, I have recently pull it off the shelf and Ben's readers have a chance to get a copy.
I agreed under one condition... we have a 4-day time limit on the offer. After that, I'm shelving it again. If you're interested, you can check out all the details here...
http://www.copywritinggrabbag.com/haines
I should mention the course comes with a swipe file of my "Hottest Sales Letters" and the quick-start, quick-study guide I mentioned earlier titled:
The Haines Method(tm) For Quick Copywriting Mastery!
Also, everyone who orders will receive--within 24 hours, by e-mail--my Shortcut Copywriting Secrets(tm) Mini-Course, a recorded interview discussing the 7 Secrets in the Mini-Course... and... another written report on copywriting.
Here's the link again...
http://www.copywritinggrabbag.com/haines
[END OF INTERVIEW]
Also, one more thing to note:
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Ben Settle